Legislature(2009 - 2010)BUTROVICH 205

02/23/2009 01:30 PM Senate HEALTH & SOCIAL SERVICES


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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
*+ SB 98 MEDICAL PATIENT BILLING DISCLOSURES TELECONFERENCED
Scheduled But Not Heard
+= SB 52 SALVIA DIVINORUM AS CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE TELECONFERENCED
Moved SB 52 Out of Committee
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
= SB 32 MEDICAID:HOME/COMMUNITY BASED SERVICES
Heard & Held
        SB  52-SALVIA DIVINORUM AS CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:07:51 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR DAVIS announced consideration of SB 52.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  THERRIAULT,  sponsor  of  SB 52,  said  the  legislation                                                               
before the committee is a  reintroduction of a previous bill that                                                               
would move to place salvia  divinorum onto the list of controlled                                                               
substances.  This  drug is  primarily  grown  in the  mountainous                                                               
regions of Mexico;  it has a history of use  as a vision-inducing                                                               
substance by  the Aztec Indians of  the region. Because it  is so                                                               
easy to  misuse and can produce  long-term psychological effects,                                                               
it has been  banned in several countries and a  growing number of                                                               
states across the nation.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
The leaves of this perennial  herb, once processed, can be eaten,                                                               
can be  drunk as  tea or  inhaled. It  is presently  available to                                                               
people in  Alaska who  choose to  order it  on the  internet and,                                                               
although purchasers  of the  substance are asked  if they  are 18                                                               
years  of  age or  older,  those  restrictions are  very  loosely                                                               
applied.  Sellers  promise  that it  will  produce  mind-altering                                                               
experiences,   but  experts   warn  that   that  depression   and                                                               
schizophrenia are very real risks with this drug.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT said  he has received some  criticism over the                                                               
past couple of  years for introducing the  legislation, by people                                                               
who say  that the if  they don't want  their children to  use the                                                               
drug,  they shouldn't  introduce legislation  that will  generate                                                               
headlines.  That  pretends  the  word  doesn't  spread  over  the                                                               
internet on sites like My  Space and Facebook that are frequented                                                               
by young  people. Salvia  is enjoying  a rise in  use due  to its                                                               
powerful effects;  he asked that  Alaska follow the lead  of many                                                               
other  countries  and  states  and   put  this  on  the  list  of                                                               
controlled substances along with peyote, mescaline and LSD.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:10:38 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR ELLIS  asked what Senator Therriault's  response would be                                                               
to the  religious freedom argument  that some folks have  made to                                                               
the  committee and  to members  of the  Alaska Libertarian  Party                                                               
regarding the personal freedom of adults aspect of this issue.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:11:15 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  THERRIAULT   answered  that  he  would   say,  from  the                                                               
libertarian perspective,  while he  tends to  agree with  them on                                                               
many things,  this is in the  same category as mescaline  and LSD                                                               
and the  state does  not give  people the  freedom to  order that                                                               
over  the Internet  and exercise  their  free will  to use  those                                                               
drugs.  The   society  has  realized   that  there   are  certain                                                               
substances that cause  damage to the individual and  society as a                                                               
whole that  is great  enough to  justify putting  restrictions on                                                               
them.  He did  not see  the religious  argument as  any different                                                               
from the argument surrounding peyote  and that has been placed on                                                               
the  controlled   substances  list.   He  would  guess   that  if                                                               
scheduling this  drug causes  a problem,  they already  have that                                                               
problem with  the drugs they  have listed,  yet he does  not hear                                                               
people  asking  that  legislation  be introduced  to  remove  the                                                               
restriction on those other drugs.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
2:12:25 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR PASKVAN  questioned whether Senator Therriault  had asked                                                               
the Alaska  Medical Association  about this,  or if  the American                                                               
Medical  Association has  produced any  type of  study that  puts                                                               
this particular drug in a specific category.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DAVE STANCLIFF, staff to Senator  Therriault, said there has been                                                               
a fair  amount of debate as  to how this substance  reacts in the                                                               
mind and it  is unique among all other  hallucinogenics. There is                                                               
ongoing research by  both the Alaska Medical  Association and the                                                               
American Medical Association with regard  to how it might be used                                                               
safely in a  medical setting and this bill does  not preclude the                                                               
use of this substance for medical studies.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  PASKVAN pointed  out  Mr. Stancliff's  use  of the  term                                                               
"misuse"  and wanted  to know  what  the difference  is in  these                                                               
studies between appropriate use and misuse.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:14:02 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. STANCLIFF  said his  research has revealed  that there  is no                                                               
quality control  for this  substance, so  buyers don't  know what                                                               
they are really  getting. Also, frequent users of  this and other                                                               
psychic substances  state that they  have not found a  level that                                                               
is  predictable; there  is no  way to  predict what  the reaction                                                               
will be  from one  use to the  next. Since this  is so  much more                                                               
powerful  than any  other  natural  hallucinogenic substance,  it                                                               
takes  very little  to  induce  a trance  or  put  people into  a                                                               
catatonic state if  they use too much; even  the most experienced                                                               
"mind travelers"  warn about this particular  substance. There is                                                               
no medical way at this point to measure or determine response.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:15:46 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR PASKVAN  assumed this would  make users of  salvia felons                                                               
and he wondered why it is classified that way.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. STANCLIFF said  that in some states it is  on Schedule I, but                                                               
they have  chosen to put  it on Schedule  II because it  seems to                                                               
have  the same  difficult  properties as  those other  substances                                                               
have. He thinks they will  hear from others in the administration                                                               
who can  speak to exactly how  Schedule II works in  terms of the                                                               
degrees  of  criminality  involved.   Certainly  it  is  no  less                                                               
dangerous, and  perhaps far more dangerous,  than mescaline, LSD,                                                               
peyote and  other drugs that  are on  this schedule. It  might be                                                               
worth  putting on  record that  since Senator  Therriault started                                                               
this effort three  years ago when he was aware  of only one place                                                               
where a person  could obtain this, it has escalated  to the point                                                               
that smoke shops  all over state are carrying it  and 4,600 sites                                                               
on YouTube are showing people using it.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
2:17:58 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR PASKVAN explained that what  he is struggling with is the                                                               
concept of  felony vs. misdemeanor  vs. infraction  for something                                                               
that he has heard no definitive medical statement about.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. STANCLIFF  said he understands  and doesn't know  of anywhere                                                               
that  those organizations  have made  a statement  regarding what                                                               
degree of criminality would be appropriate.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:18:41 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR THERRIAULT added  that they are left  to make comparisons                                                               
with the  other drugs they have  already listed and try  to match                                                               
its effects with those of other substances on the list.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. STANCLIFF quoted from the Navy's Drug Detection and                                                                         
Deterrence Branch:                                                                                                              
     There has been a recent interest among young adults and                                                                    
     adolescents to  re-discover ethnobotanical  plants that                                                                    
     can  induce changes  in perception,  hallucinations, or                                                                    
     other  psychologically-induced  changes. …  information                                                                    
     provided by  abusers indicates that the  negative long-                                                                    
     term  effects of  Salvia  Divinorum may  be similar  to                                                                    
     those  produced  by  other hallucinogens  such  as  LSD                                                                    
     (lysergic acid  diethylamide) including  depression and                                                                    
     schizophrenia."   The  [Drug  Enforcement  Agency]  DEA                                                                    
     states  "It's a  drug of  concern because  of its  wide                                                                    
     availability  and unknown  long-term effects."  And DEA                                                                    
     spokeswoman  Rogene  Waite  said  "...just  because  it                                                                    
     hasn't  been  scheduled  doesn't   mean  it's  safe  or                                                                    
     healthy.... It's  dangerous from what you  can see from                                                                    
     anecdotal material.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
2:20:03 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR ELLIS  said he has  gone on  YouTube and watched  some of                                                               
the videos  and has no doubt  it can be damaging,  but wonders if                                                               
there  is anything  to include  in  the packet  about the  health                                                               
impacts of the substance to justify making it illegal.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
2:21:01 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR THERRIAULT  said placing it on  controlled substance list                                                               
does just  that; it could  still be prescribed but  is controlled                                                               
like  many medications  that  pharmaceutical companies  determine                                                               
have  a   beneficial  use  but   are  not  available   without  a                                                               
prescription. He  added that  he is not  aware of  any scientific                                                               
research showing that  it has any specific use; but  if that were                                                               
determined in the future, the fact  that it is on this list would                                                               
not preclude its use.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT stated  that he does have a  letter of support                                                               
from  the  Advisory  Board  on Alcohol,  Drug  Abuse  and  Mental                                                               
Health.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
2:22:22 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR DAVIS said she would think  that if there is a concern from                                                               
a health  standpoint someone  would be here  to testify  to that.                                                               
They  have  heard this  bill  twice  before  and have  not  heard                                                               
anything from representatives of  any health organizations or the                                                               
department.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DAVIS asked the will of the committee.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
2:24:02 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  DYSON  moved  to  report   SB  52  from  committee  with                                                               
individual recommendations and attached fiscal note(s).                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR ELLIS  said he  would not  object, but  wanted it  on the                                                               
record that  he will  be signing  "no recommendation."  He thinks                                                               
there are a few things still  to be addressed before this becomes                                                               
law.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DAVIS announced that SB 52 is moved from committee.                                                                       

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